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Official TROS Spoilers discussion

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Post by Sacrebleu on Sat 11 Jul 2020, 4:44 pm

Yeah, and it's now proclaimed by many that the TROS novel says Rey kissed Ben in gratitude, and ergo there was never any romance. I realize the novel doesn't say precisely that, but still ambiguity has permeated this trilogy. By the end of three films, I think the audience should know whether or not a relationship was romantic. They shouldn't have to guess.
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Post by Saracene on Sat 11 Jul 2020, 5:06 pm

@Sacrebleu wrote:Looking at the big picture, giving a non-blood Skywalker the Skywalker name was a huge burden to put on a new character given how attached the audience has become to the Skywalkers over 40 years.  It's almost as if they tried to force the audience to transfer all their investment in the Skywalkers to one new character who isn't actually related to them.

Yes, the message of the ST is that your lineage doesn't have to define you and that's all well and good, but the reality is that family matters to most people.  It's not everything, but it's still important.

It was just a risky....and dumb....decision.
@Sacrebleu

I think it could have worked if the heart of the ST was the surrogate father/daughter relationship between Luke and Rey (and it had to be Luke, not Han or Leia, because that’s just how names work). But that wasn’t the case.

Yeah there’s merit to the “your lineage doesn’t have to define you”, but in Rey’s case there’s just no weight to it because the movies spared her from all the truly hard stuff about having a terrible lineage that Ben and OT!Luke had to deal with. Being a Palpatine didn’t cast a shade over her upbringing, no one knows she’s a Palpatine so she’s spared from other people’s judgment and fear, she had no emotional investment in her grandfather so she didn’t have to deal with his heroic image being shattered. Heck instead she gets to learn about her good and selfless parents who really loved her.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 11 Jul 2020, 5:25 pm

She's whitewashed.
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Post by snufkin on Sat 11 Jul 2020, 7:44 pm

When the dust has settled and people have time to reflect back on what the ST did/did not accomplish, what I'd love to see is analysis of what the themes are in the movies, because it plays out as an argument/discussion about what Star Wars is and what it means to be a fan/somebody who wants to participate in that fictional universe. Unfortunately the problem is like what was said here, ultimately the studio and JJ/his production team were too afraid to commit to anything specific. Not so much because they couldn't commit, but fear of alienating anybody, potential moviegoers or more important, potential customers for theme parks/cruises/streaming service. So the last movie plays not so much as an actual story, but using the characters as audience/customer stand-ins with the theme of "Remember how cool this made you feel as a kid? Look at this character you can project on to getting to experience the same thing!" There were themes set up in the previous movies, but JJ and company conveniently ignored them:

1. You don't need to be special and be Force sensitive or have a connection to an iconic character in order to rise to greatness and be a hero.  
2. War/capitalism is the real villain. Disney probably extra hated that theme.
3. There's a story behind heroes and legends. Sometimes the truth is messy and complicated, especially for the person who became a hero. But even when life has been tough or made you doubt yourself, true heroism is being able to press on and try again.
4. Love is the most important thing worth fighting for.

Beyond that, the three movies have the set up question what do these stories mean and what meaning should you derive from them, which is shown through characters like Han, Luke, Rey, Ben, Finn, and Rose. Where TLJ apparently pissed off some fans was in having Luke's exposition about the Force and the ending being about how "this belongs to everybody, it's a timeless thing, and to believe that it has to be one specific thing because a small group has controlled the discussion around it for so long is incorrect. It belongs to everybody and it will continue to exist where ever there are people who pay attention/notice it." That's how the story should've stood, but we know how it ended instead. JJ getting defensive in an interview insisting that "you can't tell people it doesn't matter" and turning the movie into a love letter to people like him and all the friends he gave cameos to. Grown adults trapped in their self-serving nostalgia. Like there's a really nasty tone in everything that happened in TRoS which feels like it's meant as a rebuke to TLJ in that he and Rian had fundamentally different beliefs about what Star Wars means in the larger pop/cultural history (which FTR I agree with Rian as it's the actual more inclusive PoV). Also I hope when people start writing these discussions when enough time has passed, they point out the irony that in trying to "rehab" Star Wars from supposedly wrong takes like the PT and TLJ, that JJ instead made the least popular and least financially successful movie in the franchise since TPM and managed to tank the franchise when he was trying to rehab it from the PT.
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Post by californiagirl on Sat 11 Jul 2020, 10:34 pm

The PT, for all it was and to an extent still is reviled by some, stayed in the public consciousness. TROS faded in a month. I would like to see pieces written about it one day too, especially if we know more about how the ST was made. But I wonder if people will actually care or remember by that point.

At least the PT had clear themes, say what you will about the execution or how it fits with the OT. But TROS only makes a lick of sense on a meta/audience level, it doesn't really have it's own internality or story cohesion with any of the other films. There's just so little to say because there's no substance or even a deliberate approach to the story.

But I hope TFA gets more analysis too, especially in relation to TLJ, it seemed like only the Reylos cared about any deeper meaning or symbolism it contained, or felt it fit at all with TLJ.
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Post by DeeBee on Sat 11 Jul 2020, 11:38 pm

@snufkin - so beautifully put!
I too would love to see some analysis. Have you ever thought of having a go writing it? I'm sure you'd be great! I'd read it!!

Straight after TROS, I kind of dropped off reading anything about it. Just a few reviews. Part of the grieving process and all.
but I'm now curious to hear more analysis.. especially of the overall saga.
I didn't realise there had been such little discourse about it - I thought it was just because I wasn't really engaged with it!
The recent What the Force interview with Charles Soule was.. certainly eye opening and kind of heartbreaking to hear his views on the overall story and meaning. Did you all hear it?! I don't catch much media but I did hear that. [Shout out to WTF you rock]

I'm not across the fandom like many of you guys are - what's been happening for the media, content writers who were heavy SW fans since TROS?

I used to listen to the Full of Sith podcast, before TROS, because they were..bearable, while also giving me a different perspective into SW which was non Reylo.. the last episode I listened to was their reaction for TROS.
Hope I don't misrepresent what I heard - but they had a group of people together basking in TROS' greatness..
Including Vanessa Marshall raving about how it was so fitting for Rey to end in Tatooine!
I noticed Bryan Young was not so gushing in his praise during that episode, he seemed hesitant, measured, and he was drowned out by all the others. I was left thinking he didn't love it, and he didn't know what to do with it because everyone else seemed to.
Bryan Young loves the PT (even called his child Anakin). I wonder - has he shared anything about TROS at all since then? It seems he is being diplomatically silent.. well.. lots of people are?
I saw a recently podcast episode was all about how Mike Pilot loved TROS. I haven't had the heart to listen to it at this point - anyone listened to it?

It was hard enough for me to leave TROS feeling kinda shattered by the experience, but it must be extra tough to realise your employment is tied to a product you were previously passionate about, but then suddenly can't stand. Ouchie.
Possible reactions to this could be:
-motivation to find something about the movie you liked, and to convince yourself it wasn't a dog's breakfast. This doesn't leave room for analysis to be published..
-just moving on to other projects and not addressing it. Which means you don't burn bridges with the Mouse, and results in not much analysis published..
-just focus on clone wars. and breathe. lol. Again,not much analysis published..
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 12 Jul 2020, 2:56 am

@snufkin wrote:When the dust has settled and people have time to reflect back on what the ST did/did not accomplish, what I'd love to see is analysis of what the themes are in the movies, because it plays out as an argument/discussion about what Star Wars is and what it means to be a fan/somebody who wants to participate in that fictional universe. Unfortunately the problem is like what was said here, ultimately the studio and JJ/his production team were too afraid to commit to anything specific. Not so much because they couldn't commit, but fear of alienating anybody, potential moviegoers or more important, potential customers for theme parks/cruises/streaming service. So the last movie plays not so much as an actual story, but using the characters as audience/customer stand-ins with the theme of "Remember how cool this made you feel as a kid? Look at this character you can project on to getting to experience the same thing!" There were themes set up in the previous movies, but JJ and company conveniently ignored them:

1. You don't need to be special and be Force sensitive or have a connection to an iconic character in order to rise to greatness and be a hero.  
2. War/capitalism is the real villain. Disney probably extra hated that theme.
3. There's a story behind heroes and legends. Sometimes the truth is messy and complicated, especially for the person who became a hero. But even when life has been tough or made you doubt yourself, true heroism is being able to press on and try again.
4. Love is the most important thing worth fighting for.

Beyond that, the three movies have the set up question what do these stories mean and what meaning should you derive from them, which is shown through characters like Han, Luke, Rey, Ben, Finn, and Rose. Where TLJ apparently pissed off some fans was in having Luke's exposition about the Force and the ending being about how "this belongs to everybody, it's a timeless thing, and to believe that it has to be one specific thing because a small group has controlled the discussion around it for so long is incorrect. It belongs to everybody and it will continue to exist where ever there are people who pay attention/notice it." That's how the story should've stood, but we know how it ended instead. JJ getting defensive in an interview insisting that "you can't tell people it doesn't matter" and turning the movie into a love letter to people like him and all the friends he gave cameos to. Grown adults trapped in their self-serving nostalgia. Like there's a really nasty tone in everything that happened in TRoS which feels like it's meant as a rebuke to TLJ in that he and Rian had fundamentally different beliefs about what Star Wars means in the larger pop/cultural history (which FTR I agree with Rian as it's the actual more inclusive PoV). Also I hope when people start writing these discussions when enough time has passed, they point out the irony that in trying to "rehab" Star Wars from supposedly wrong takes like the PT and TLJ, that JJ instead made the least popular and least financially successful movie in the franchise since TPM and managed to tank the franchise when he was trying to rehab it from the PT.

100% agreement here.
My brother loves SW, but after the prequels he always said the Jedi came across as a strict religious cult who essentially demanded acolytes quash their ability to feel love for others and focus on being detached and impersonal. This was something he'd always felt but Lucas essentially crystallised it.
The Jedi were very much like extreme religious groups who preach hellfire and damnation, refuse to allow their priests to marry because they demand 100% loyalty to the church and in some cases will offer help to those in need but insist that they convert to their belief system in return. The Jedi took Anakin away from slavery but he had to become a padawan and adopt the way of life.
TLJ offered the possibility of the Jedi adapting, recognising their mistakes and beginning a new era, and that it was Luke who realised that was actually a homage to the EU where he himself took a wife and fathered a son but also had it's own message, that there needed to be a balance between the dark and the light rather than two extremes.
And the suggestion that the real enemy was war and capitalism itself was bringing SW into the 21st century and maturing it.

TROS destroyed all that and plunged everything back to the tired old 'black and white' tropes. All the plot and character development....gone.
I guess we should have realised JJ was not going to give us something new when we see Rey's regressive costume and hairdo, and Abrams insisted Ben would be 'keeping his shirt on' - no sex please, we're Jedi.'
Disney were NEVER going to build on Rian's ideas, because they're capitalist kings. And at the same time desperate to please the 'woke' movement, therefore, tut tut - reylo is abusive, strong women don't need men. Some media are now calling the Han/Leia romance abusive, believe it or not. So we get a weird hybrid of the worst of past SW and the worst of so called'modern views'. The result - a dull preachy film with no heart which kills off its best character because he deserves to be punished for his bad decisions and assaulting darling Rey, and transforms Rey into a sexless icon who is an example of what the stale Jedi teachings preach, with men existing only to serve her.
What a disappointment.
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Post by Saracene on Sun 12 Jul 2020, 3:22 am

To be fair, in the end TLJ itself never really committed to anything where the Jedi are concerned. In one scene, Luke seems to accept that the Jedi must end, in the next he pretty much proclaims Rey to be the new Jedi... so did he change his mind in between the scenes? Why? Meanwhile Rey has no obvious opinions on the Jedi or the future of the Jedi, and it’s unclear whether anything Luke told her about the mistakes of the Jedi influenced her simplistic view in any way at all.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 12 Jul 2020, 4:13 am

I did read somewhere that Rian had to be careful how he ended TLJ, so to leave his successor room for telling their own story, so I think he essentially left what the Jedi would be going forward to them while giving them the foundations for something different. Jason Fry's wonderful tie in novel ended rather oddly regarding Rey.....after being sympathetic to Kylo for most of it when she woke up in the throne room she chose to spare him not because she cared but because it was the 'will of the Force', Fry said he had to leave it like that, again because of what the story would do going forward.
That's sadly the weakness of the ST. They were essentially making things up as they went along. It worked with TFA and TLJ, but failed spectacularly with TROS.
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Post by Saracene on Sun 12 Jul 2020, 5:15 am

The bigger weakness of the ST IMO is that, because every movie wanted to leave things open-ended for the next movie, it wouldn't even fully commit to its own story. You just can't tell a story in a truly satisfying way when you're constantly thinking about obliging the next writer and leaving things vague on purpose. I think that Reylo in TLJ, though clearly the most compelling thing about the movie, fell victim to this as well to an extent.
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Post by californiagirl on Sun 12 Jul 2020, 8:17 am

I thought it was clear that Luke came to a middle ground that the Jedi are both needed, but also in dire need of change. They failed somewhat spectacularly in the PT, but neither does their absence help. Basically, they could be less up their own butts, and not these oddly emotionless beings that don't really care that much about anything, this ain't it chief.

Anyway, TLJ and TROS was trending yesterday because of the "say something nice about the ST" meme, there had been one for the PT too, and I'm seeing some love for TFA too.

Maybe I wasn't paying attention, but there really didn't seem to be that much discourse on TCW this year, even though it appeared to be universally loved. Odd. Haven't seen much analysis of Mando either, though it certainly has the coverage and awareness.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 12 Jul 2020, 8:58 am

The worst thing about TROS is it throws positive change down the toilet. Rey at the end is a typical old fashioned Jedi, complete with virginal white costume and holier than thou attitude (she could never love Kylo Ren).
We are back to square one.
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Post by californiagirl on Sun 12 Jul 2020, 2:03 pm

I know some people here (and elsewhere) are really into the world between worlds, so here's someone who just put together a timeline of its development, release, evidence, etc. They think Kylo was always slated to go there, who knows.

https://my.visme.co/view/kkxyge90-lucasfilm-wbw-timeline
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Post by Sacrebleu on Sun 12 Jul 2020, 3:20 pm

@Saracene wrote:
@Sacrebleu wrote:Looking at the big picture, giving a non-blood Skywalker the Skywalker name was a huge burden to put on a new character given how attached the audience has become to the Skywalkers over 40 years.  It's almost as if they tried to force the audience to transfer all their investment in the Skywalkers to one new character who isn't actually related to them.

Yes, the message of the ST is that your lineage doesn't have to define you and that's all well and good, but the reality is that family matters to most people.  It's not everything, but it's still important.

It was just a risky....and dumb....decision.
@Sacrebleu

I think it could have worked if the heart of the ST was the surrogate father/daughter relationship between Luke and Rey (and it had to be Luke, not Han or Leia, because that’s just how names work). But that wasn’t the case.

Yeah there’s merit to the “your lineage doesn’t have to define you”, but in Rey’s case there’s just no weight to it because the movies spared her from all the truly hard stuff about having a terrible lineage that Ben and OT!Luke had to deal with. Being a Palpatine didn’t cast a shade over her upbringing, no one knows she’s a Palpatine so she’s spared from other people’s judgment and fear, she had no emotional investment in her grandfather so she didn’t have to deal with his heroic image being shattered. Heck instead she gets to learn about her good and selfless parents who really loved her.
@Saracene

Agree that Rey's relationship with Luke, and lack thereof, made her taking his name more inexplicable.  She was much closer to Leia than to Luke and spent much more time with Leia than with Luke, and yet Rey for some reason doesn't choose Organa.  And what significance did Tatooine have to Leia, the master Rey was closest to?  Leia's biological father was from Tatooine, but why would that matter so much to Rey?  TROS' ending, in my opinion, just didn't make sense for Rey's character.  It's all nostalgia signaling to the audience, and that's made clear in the documentary about the making of the film.  Everybody is talking during the filming of that scene about "this is where it all began", but why is that so important to Rey? Not one of the filmmakers mentioned character motivation in regard to that scene. They were too busy waxing nostalgic.

Also agree that Rey being related to Palps has little or no significance either.  Whether or not she's related to him, she despises him and is going to kill him.  Their blood relationship added very little to the story, the only exception being that it made her more afraid she was destined for the dark side.  But Jedi have always struggled with that, whether or not they were related to a Sith.  And the awkward exposition dump by Kylo to explain it all was pretty bad.
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Post by Saracene on Sun 12 Jul 2020, 5:32 pm

@californiagirl wrote:I thought it was clear that Luke came to a middle ground that the Jedi are both needed, but also in dire need of change. They failed somewhat spectacularly in the PT, but neither does their absence help. Basically, they could be less up their own butts, and not these oddly emotionless beings that don't really care that much about anything, this ain't it chief.
@californiagirl

But that’s just the viewer’s interpretation, that’s not anything that the movie itself actually articulates. Anyone can interpret Luke’s “I won’t be the Last Jedi” however way they like.

@Sacrebleu Rey taking on Organa name would have been just as unearned IMO, since Rey’s relationship with Leia is hands-down the weakest and most forced one of the OT trio. We’re just *told* that Rey spent a year training with Leia, but we don’t get to see their bond develop, and because of the severe limitations of Carrie’s older footage there’s no real depth to their interactions in TRoS. We’re just meant to buy their relationship because look, they hug, they must be close! Leia’s mentor/protege dynamic with Poe in TLJ was IMO about 1000 times more authentic and genuine.


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Post by Sacrebleu on Sun 12 Jul 2020, 6:03 pm

I thought Luke's attitude was changed by his conversation with Yoda.
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Post by Saracene on Sun 12 Jul 2020, 6:11 pm

@Sacrebleu wrote:I thought Luke's attitude was changed by his conversation with Yoda.
@Sacrebleu

But Yoda told him that yes, the Jedi must end, and made Luke think that he’s burned the old Jedi texts? There was no discussion of the Jedi evolving in that scene. The audience may know that Rey already took the texts, but Luke wouldn’t know that.
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Post by Atenais on Sun 12 Jul 2020, 7:57 pm

@californiagirl wrote:I thought it was clear that Luke came to a middle ground that the Jedi are both needed, but also in dire need of change. They failed somewhat spectacularly in the PT, but neither does their absence help. Basically, they could be less up their own butts, and not these oddly emotionless beings that don't really care that much about anything, this ain't it chief.

@Sacrebleu wrote:I thought Luke's attitude was changed by his conversation with Yoda.
@californiagirl @Sacrebleu

Yes, me too. Since SW is still an action movie, I don't think everything has to be detailed explained. The reason for Yoda's scene is to change Luke's perspective.

I still don't have the guts to rewatch TROS. My main feeling about the ST is of utter disappointment. It could have been such a great trilogy. But looking back, their lack of planning shows, the three movies don't look connected. And I know some here don't like TLJ (which I think is brilliant), but TROS was the iceberg that sunk this Titanic.

@DeeBee wrote:@snufkin - so beautifully put!
I too would love to see some analysis. Have you ever thought of having a go writing it? I'm sure you'd be great! I'd read it!!
@DeeBee @snufkin

I second this. I would love to read it.

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Post by snufkin on Sun 12 Jul 2020, 11:16 pm

I could write it but I'm thinking if any film scholars/publications ever took serious stock. Part of the problem with the entire ST and Disney re-launch is how Disney PR really controlled access for who got to write/do cover stories so it was never going to be critical. Also how for all the "The Force is Female" talk, Rolling Stone and Vanity Fair hired middle aged men who were basically JJ's peers in terms of what they value/think is important in the Saga films to write about a young female protagonist who supposedly is forging her own path instead of being a stand-in for what they experienced as young boys.

Otherwise I do keep a file of clipped comments/posts about the ideas that represent at the best what the meta themes are for the ST. Which unfortunately the studio decided to shelve for what should have been the culminating chapter

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Post by motherofpearl1 on Mon 13 Jul 2020, 1:48 am

They repeatedly blame Rian yet he created something fresh and new that could have led to a whole new version of SW.

As for Tattooine and the Skywalker name having no significance for Rey.,.,.I don't think it was ever meant to. It holds significance for Abrams and Terrio. They might have been influenced by Disney execs. up to a degree but they made the film their eight year old selves wanted to see. For them, SW was all about the Twins. Hence the Mary and Joseph of Alabama scene, with their favourite characters smiling proudly upon JJ's darling little Mary Sue, who was once a character I liked.
Ben Solo, to quote his alter ego Kylo Ren, had no place in the story apart from a metaphorical organ donor for their precious Luke/Leia surrogate daughter.
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Post by californiagirl on Mon 13 Jul 2020, 10:04 am

Though one thing about the above comment from Hector Navarro, he also kind of bought into the "Reylos harass and bully the LF employees and cast" narrative, and thought John's "anti-haters" video was awesome. I've found an unfortunate trend that even many TLJ fans weirdly miss some of the point of not only the film, but buy into the icky standard beliefs about certain groups of fans, thinking they're doing the right thing all the while. It's really unfortunate.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Mon 13 Jul 2020, 11:15 am

The problem is a small group of weirdos who 'shipped' Adam with Daisy, not Jo. I myself haven't met a Reylo who hasn't shown anything but respect for Jo Tucker, one lady actually met her and said she's a lovely person.

Adam himself doesn't seem to have any problems with the fandom, he even went on SM, which he hates, to thank people for the money raised for AITAF.
Regarding John Boyega I'm just genuinely bewildered that he seems to have a dislike for reylos, because prior to his behaviour on twitter I never saw any reylo saying nasty things about him.
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Post by Piper Maru on Mon 13 Jul 2020, 1:32 pm

Lol what? It has nothing to do with actors' spouses, "shipping" and drama around that.

It's about Reylos upset with TROS on twitter and LF employees acting all sad and "boo hoo the Reylos were mean". Which is the same rethoric they employed when people complained about TLJ (just so two years later they could pander to them).
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Mon 13 Jul 2020, 2:33 pm

It's a funny old world,
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Post by vaderito on Mon 13 Jul 2020, 2:35 pm

@motherofpearl1 wrote:  
Regarding John Boyega I'm just genuinely bewildered that he seems to have a dislike for reylos, because prior to his behaviour on twitter I never saw any reylo saying nasty things about him.

Look at it from his perspective. He read the script where his character was going to tell Rey he was FS. He said, before he saw the movie, that he thanked JJ for putting in the script what he wanted to happen for a long time (now we know what it was). And since there was no decision, til filming of the scene, whether Rey and Kylo kissed or only hugged, my bet is that kiss wasn't in the script. So they cut the movie and big FS announcement wasn't there!  but there was "rey I want to tell you something" and "REEEEEEEY" x 23 and finally, the icing on the cake, Rey and Kylo kiss. So his character looked like a pathetic third wheel instead of a bad*** FS. Moreover, whatever Finn and Jannah romance in making was there did not make it to the big screen either. The way the movie was cut, Lando seemed like he was flirting with Jannah. So loses Rey to Kylo, loses jannah to Lando, yikes. The movie simply wasn't a good look for Finn so he had to vent and I guess Reylos were the easiest target. It makes sense that he had a meltdown on NYE when people tend to be most depressed.
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