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Official TROS Spoilers discussion

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Post by Atenais on Wed 22 Apr 2020, 6:09 pm

@motherofpearl1 wrote:(...) A friend of mine kindly got me the dvd of TROS over Easter, so I can skip to all the Kylo/Ben scenes (which I'm doing, frequently) and I told myself to try watching it again, to be fair, but honestly - it's even worse second time around! Finn is a pain in the a** with his constant. REY!!!!!, REG struggles with the awful dialogue (bless him, he deserves better) Rose's treatment is even more infuriating, but most of all Rey is, quite simply, impossible to tolerate. It actually breaks my heart to see Daisy's sweet, vulnerable heroine become this self serving, self righteous goody two shoes.(...)
@motherofpearl1

That's the reason I'm afraid to watch this movie again. I would like to watch it again, to have a second opinion. But even watching some scenes (as the "I'm Rey Skywalker") is getting on my nerves.
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Post by Geralt_Riv on Wed 22 Apr 2020, 6:32 pm

Reylo in this movie doesn't make sense at all. It was heavily rushed in The Last Jedi, but at least it was a developing process. In TRoS Rey is in her "You're a monster!" pre hand touching state for most of the movie. Then she heals him and we have Exegol. There shouldn't have been the kiss. The scene is better without it. Still it's bad but slightly better. Ben heals Rey, she smiles and says "Ben", he smiles back and then dies. It would have been better this way and later he should show up on Tatooine as a Force Ghost. At least it wouldn't have this cringy incest vibe that Luke&Leia give there. I watched the movie today again and I actually laugh during it. Not because of the jokes but because of how stupid this whole movie is. But what's even more funny about it all is that I enjoyed TRoS slighly more with each viewing. Laughing
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Post by Atenais on Wed 22 Apr 2020, 8:11 pm

@Geralt_Riv wrote:Reylo in this movie doesn't make sense at all. It was heavily rushed in The Last Jedi, but at least it was a developing process. In TRoS Rey is in her "You're a monster!" pre hand touching state for most of the movie. Then she heals him and we have Exegol. There shouldn't have been the kiss. The scene is better without it. Still it's bad but slightly better. Ben heals Rey, she smiles and says "Ben", he smiles back and then dies. It would have been better this way and later he should show up on Tatooine as a Force Ghost. At least it wouldn't have this cringy incest vibe that Luke&Leia give there. I watched the movie today again and I actually laugh during it. Not because of the jokes but because of how stupid this whole movie is. But what's even more funny about it all is that I enjoyed TRoS slighly more with each viewing. Laughing
@Geralt_Riv

I read that some people actually laughed at that moment. I didn't laugh because it felt like a win, but, at the same time, everything was so rushed and Ben didn't even have any lines, it looked weird. You're right, without the kiss (and I love that at least we had a kiss) the scene would make more sense - if that was possible.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 23 Apr 2020, 2:29 am

If there's one thing I can't understand is why the hatred for Kylo still continues.
The individual who I shall not name is still posting his venom on other forums, plus wanting to know why Finn is not Leading Man and insisting that it's purely because they did not want a black man romantically involved with a white woman.
Way back in TFA, sources stated that Sam(who later became Finn) was always meant to be a secondary character. The main characters were Rey and Kylo. And if you look at TFA's art book Sam was originally depicted as white (Poe was originally depicted as black).
I can't understand the persistent anger, because TROS gave Finn stans and Kylo haters exactly what they wanted. Kylo's scenes were cut down to less than half an hour. Finn is in almost every scene in the film. Finn is given Force sensitivity. And there's room for Finn/Rey in future comics and books, as they never really emphasised Finn/Jannah, and Finn/Rose is dead in the water. Which also makes me angry - there already WAS an on screen inter racial love affair between Finn and Rose, but they scuppered that. It's not John Boyega who was hard done by in this film, it's Kelly.
Most of all, Ben Solo is killed off. Post his ridiculous death he's never seen, heard or mentioned again. And the more I look at The Kiss scene the more I see it as an insult to Reylos rather than a gift. 'Look what happens guys when you kiss a goddess'.
Ben's final scene still astonishes me at how poorly it was executed. How come healing a dying Kylo didn't drain Rey of HER lifeforce. And how come SHE didn't vanish into the Force like every other Jedi.
Abrams and Terrio were so carried away with their fan**** they failed to see the plot holes in their own film.
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Post by vaderito on Thu 23 Apr 2020, 9:08 am

Yes, TROS was rushing through eevrything and spaced out nothing. As Saracene and Geralt pointed out, they put everything in one scene - bendention via Leia/Healing/han and then Kiss/Death. No time to breathe to let each of these things sink in first.

That said, novelizations are inconsequential because they have low impact/low reach. Only the most hardcore fans care to check out those. Whatever LFL wanted to say it said it in the movies. Tie-ins are just a quick cashgrab from the most ardent and not that much cash anyway.

What matters, however, is this:

https://deadline.com/2020/04/star-wars-rise-of-skywalker-movie-profit-2019-lowest-for-lucasfilm-1202915179/

Star Wars: Rise Of Skywalker’ Lowest Profit Of Disney Trilogy Titles: No. 9 On Deadline’s 2019 Most Valuable Blockbuster Tournament

When it comes to evaluating the financial performance of top movies, it isn’t about what a film grosses at the box office. The true tale is told when production budgets, P&A, talent participations and other costs collide with box office grosses and ancillary revenues from VOD to DVD and TV. To get close to that mysterious end of the equation, Deadline is repeating our Most Valuable Blockbuster tournament for 2019, using data culled by seasoned and trusted sources.

Disney spared no expense on Rise of Skywalker, with the finale reportedly the most expensive of the latter part of the trilogy with a $275M production cost and total global costs of $627M — versus Force Awakens ($259M production, $776.5M total) and Last Jedi ($200M production, $578.3M total). This resulted in net profits of $300M for Rise of Skywalker, which were lower than spinoff Rogue One: A Star Wars Story ($319.6M) but much better than Solo: A Star Wars Story which lost close to $77M. The last two Star Wars trilogy movies from Disney actually led Deadline’s profit tournaments: Last Jedi in 2017 with $417.5M and Force Awakens in 2015 with a massive $780.11M. Regarding participations here of $75M, Disney doesn’t pay out profit percentages after cash breakeven, but rather bonuses based on box office results, and that’s spread out here among Abrams, the cast and Lucasfilm boss Kathleen Kennedy. Not accounted for here in Rise of Skywalker‘s black ink is merchandise revenue streams, which are largely kept under wraps.

Woof.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 23 Apr 2020, 9:59 am

Ouch!
I know I shouldn't but....
☺☺☺

In seriousness, Disney could have possibly ridden this out if not for the horror that is coronavirus. Because of the world wide lockdown, the theme parks they essentially sacrificed the last Skywalker film for aren't making any money at the moment. As a result the loss of revenue will affect them much much harder than it would have.

Ironically if they'd let Ben Solo live, they could have made a fortune in sales of spin off books and comics featuring a redeemed Ben Solo.
Instead they now have to rely on Trio comics and Project Luminous.
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Post by californiagirl on Thu 23 Apr 2020, 12:16 pm

And I'm getting the impression the TROS merch didn't do as well as the past movies either. There wasn't that much merch to begin with. Right now LF is putting out the TROS tie-ins they're required to, there's still some comic/graphic novel, Shakespeare, picture book kind of things, the inexplicable Poe book, but other than the kids comics, which are usually anthologies of characters from many parts of SW, they haven't announced any more ST stuff.

It would be difficult, but I wouldn't be surprised if they undid much of TROS some years down the line, because it hurts them long term. Pride and denial only last so long, money eventually speaks louder, and there may be new people at LF or Disney by that point too. There's a reason they're emphasizing Mandalorian, giving updates on Cassian and Obi-Wan, announcing new shows and new publishing projects in entirely different time periods. All the better to bury TROS with, at least for the time being, especially with the theme parks closed for months, maybe a year or two in the meanwhile. Gotta do something else instead.

I don't think the kiss was out of spite or trying to say anything, TROS didn't have that much thought put into it for that. Ben didn't die because he kissed a goddess, he died because Vader did and it's a thing from the OT, and ignores any context for it. That's the approach to the entire film. Kylo haters are mad because they hate the character, he did get more screen time than in the previous two movies, he got some kind of a redemption arc and kiss, he was more central to the story than Finn and had more attempted character development, is better remembered and more talked about than the other supporting characters. Kylo kind of won on a meta level, if not in-story, despite everything.
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Post by vaderito on Thu 23 Apr 2020, 12:47 pm

Everything that's coming out is what they finished before the movie came out. So they have no choice but to release all those materials. Whta real future content will be is anyone's guess because it will be influenced by TROS reception. But as of now, eevrything is just backlogged ancillary material they wrote/created as tie-ins to TROS.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 23 Apr 2020, 2:29 pm

Just gone to the official SW twitter page.
The tagline for TROS's dvd release is:
"She is all the Jedi"
Priceless.
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Post by californiagirl on Thu 23 Apr 2020, 2:30 pm

We're already in the later stages of TROS tie-ins they decided on or even made before it even came out, so I find the fact that all recent announcements or updates being about entirely unrelated things to be interesting. This just in, a Doctor Aphra audio drama, written by a woman too (the comics are not). There's a popular female SW character with goodwill they can bank on, there's been talk of her transcending to another medium for a long time. More for the hardcore fans, as are any publishing projects, but it does seem that LF is actively seeking out options that are widely liked, or so far removed from any other project they can't even be controversial yet, rather than just assuming they know what people want a la TROS.
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Post by vaderito on Thu 23 Apr 2020, 3:47 pm

These announcements certainly don't help the perception that TROS isn't a hot iron they need to forge ASAP.
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Post by snufkin on Fri 24 Apr 2020, 12:18 am

Just something random that turned up on my Twitter T/L because I tend to follow film discussions, not SW fandom. If film nerds can notice this detail and figure it out, just another piece of evidence of how badly TRoS missed the mark (and opportunity).
Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 3 Screen82
Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 3 Screen83
Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 3 Screen84
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Post by fuhry on Mon 27 Apr 2020, 3:37 pm

So I rewrote TROS.  Lol.  Y'all can click on it, and comment, if you want!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PgJIX9HSEvAJfbC9ffZq6QVRsME2d1PDzW1yrzgxEuE/edit?usp=sharing

When thinking about what this movie, as released, didn't do but needed to do, I made a mental checklist of things that needed to happen in the story.  Then, you can figure out what planets they're on, who's with who, how you deal with Carrie's absence, et cetera, with all kinds of fun scenarios.  But it seems like J.J. and Terrio went backwards and started with the fun scenarios and then tried to fit them into the story.  For me, this movie needed to :

1. Create an ending and a resolution that is distinct from that of ROTJ, and has a greater significance.
2. Continue, and resolve Rey's journey of self discovery, and have that discovery create meaning in the story.
3. Tell a believable story of Ben Solo's redemption, one that is distinct from Anakin's redemption.
4. Move Rey and Kylo away from their respective sides, and toward each other, while still having their relationship be linked to the fate of the galaxy.
5. Reaffirm and deepen the friendship between Rey and Finn.
6. Emphasize Finn's importance to the larger conflict.
7. Shed some light on Rey's TFA force vision, and on Snoke.
8. Continue Poe's leadership arc.

So, I started with the TROS script and got rid of the parts that regressed or didn't advance the story (which was most of it).  I loved the idea of revisiting the death star ruins, but I couldn't find a way of fitting that into the story, nor could I see any reason why Rey and Kylo would be fighting each other.


Last edited by fuhry on Mon 27 Apr 2020, 3:38 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : forgot the of)
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Post by MaddieDove on Mon 27 Apr 2020, 5:32 pm

@fuhry wrote:So, I started with the TROS script and got rid of the parts that regressed or didn't advance the story (which was most of it).  I loved the idea of revisiting the death star ruins, but I couldn't find a way of fitting that into the story, nor could I see any reason why Rey and Kylo would be fighting each other.
@fuhry

This. Although I tried to stay away from spoilers during the fall, the pictures and trailers showed them fighting, and that's what I kept asking since I couldn't imagine why would they fight each other so seriously and extensively. I still don't know why they did in the movie, since I try not to think too much about it, hoping it fade in my memory like a bad dream.

I guess JJ wanted the duel in the movie, but didn't bother to think about where the story of Rey and Kylo told in TFA and TLJ was really going.
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Post by californiagirl on Tue 28 Apr 2020, 1:16 am

Nice interview with Naomi, but why do they keep teasing if Jannah is or isn't Lando's daughter? I thought LF people already shot that down. The VD was strangely worded, the novels didn't go for that either... Why be so vague if Naomi actually knows Jannah's backstory? JJ also told Daisy Rey's parents on the set of TFA, and she seemed to think it was all said in the film, but it kept getting trotted out forever. Really, this strategy is tedious.

https://www.digitalspy.com/movies/a31699200/star-wars-naomi-ackie-on-school-days-and-spin-offs/

Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 3 Scree727
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue 28 Apr 2020, 1:43 am

Naomi's lovely,but her character was totally unnecessary. Her story arc should have been Finn's.
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Post by vaderito on Tue 28 Apr 2020, 7:02 am

Yeha games around Jannah's origin are ridiculous. It isn't like anyone cares one way or the other. I think she was the daughter but they realized it was stupid. Cause why would anyone care whether some brand new character was related to Lando?

jannah, Zorii, pryde were totally unnecessary.
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Post by Sacrebleu on Tue 28 Apr 2020, 7:30 am

I really enjoyed the performances of the actors playing Pryde and Zorii and Jannah, especially Pryde. However, when you already don't have enough screen time for your existing characters, like Hux and Rose, adding so many new characters into an already crowded film compounded the problems. It adds to the feeling of everybody's story being left truncated. Finn is one of the main characters, and his story got similar short shrift. If you're going to set up Finn as Force sensitive, there should be a payoff moment. Maybe one was filmed and it got cut, which would explain some of JB's pissiness.
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Post by DeeBee on Tue 28 Apr 2020, 7:40 am

I think Jannah is a Palpatine, but that’s cool, she can just change her name to Calrissian if she feels like it. tongue
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue 28 Apr 2020, 8:45 am

@Sacrebleu wrote:I really enjoyed the performances of the actors playing Pryde and Zorii and Jannah, especially Pryde. However, when you already don't have enough screen time for your existing characters, like Hux and Rose, adding so many new characters into an already crowded film compounded the problems. It adds to the feeling of everybody's story being left truncated. Finn is one of the main characters, and his story got similar short shrift. If you're going to set up Finn as Force sensitive, there should be a payoff moment. Maybe one was filmed and it got cut, which would explain some of JB's pissiness.

That's exactly what I thought
Love or hate TLJ, Rose, Holdo and DJ all had plenty of screen time and roles to play without it in any way taking screen time off the other cast members.
I would have liked it if the last film had been split into two, but with such an hopeless writer and director we probably would have ended up with even more trio
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Post by californiagirl on Tue 28 Apr 2020, 9:32 am

The annoying part is that I can think of much better uses for Jannah and Zorii than what we got, even Pryde could have been put to better FO infighting uses. And if TROS hadn't spent so much time on the extended fetch quest and needless trio banter, I don't think this would have come at the expense of the main cast.
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Post by Sacrebleu on Tue 28 Apr 2020, 11:19 am

Making Rey a Palpatine also took valuable time because it had to be explained, time that could have been used for more character moments and development. It also added two more new characters (her parents) that we barely learn anything about.
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Post by vaderito on Tue 28 Apr 2020, 12:13 pm

@Sacrebleu wrote:I really enjoyed the performances of the actors playing Pryde and Zorii and Jannah, especially Pryde. However, when you already don't have enough screen time for your existing characters, like Hux and Rose, adding so many new characters into an already crowded film compounded the problems. It adds to the feeling of everybody's story being left truncated. Finn is one of the main characters, and his story got similar short shrift. If you're going to set up Finn as Force sensitive, there should be a payoff moment. Maybe one was filmed and it got cut, which would explain some of JB's pissiness.
@Sacrebleu

It wouldn't be cut out if they deemed it important. It was just fan service that JJ forgot about halfway through the movie, lol.
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Post by fuhry on Wed 29 Apr 2020, 9:21 am

@Sacrebleu wrote:Making Rey a Palpatine also took valuable time because it had to be explained, time that could have been used for more character moments and development. It also added two more new characters (her parents) that we barely learn anything about.
@Sacrebleu

Personally I think some further exposition on Rey's origin is helpful to the story. But they way they chose to expose this was so clunky and awkward. Palpatine tells Kylo, Kylo tells Rey, Luke and Leia knew all along? Ugh. I would rather they full-out retcon TLJ and have one of her parents be alive, and having her run into that person. That's what they did with Poe! So just replace that unnecessary Poe backstory with Rey backstory.



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Post by motherofpearl1 on Wed 29 Apr 2020, 11:05 am

I'm pretty sure I posted this before but it's still worth a look just to see the fascinating possibilities if Ben Solo had lived.
https://screenrant.com/star-wars-rise-skywalker-kylo-ren-redemption-mistake-bad-reason/

I'm a middle aged woman and by rights should be past my disappointment, my anger and my sadness at how they chose to end the franchise.....but I doubt if I ever will.
For someone who's loved it for so much and so long, it's not something I'll ever be reconciled with.

I've tried to drown my sorrows with fan fiction but at the end of the day, not only is it because I know it's not 'canon'.....but because they have made me loathe Rey. Hopefully one day I'll like her again, but to me she'll always be the person who stole everything that by rights was Ben's, including his family name, legacy lightsabre, mother's love.....and finally his life.

And she never even gave him a thought afterwards.
I find her the most unlikeable SW heroine ever. Cynical, bitter Jyn Erso was miles better.
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