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Official TROS Spoilers discussion

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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 30 Aug 2020, 2:01 am

Disney were so eager to get their greedy hands on yet another successful company they didn't stop to think about what exactly they were going to do with it.
Now they are focusing on the past SW because they've destroyed its future.
Unfortunately for this fan what they've done is tainted everything.
I'm not interested in all this High Republic stuff, because I know the Republic falls thanks to the Emperor.
I'm not interested in the PT anymore because I know Anakin's sacrifice was for nothing because of the Emperor.
I'm not interested in the OT anymore because they all died, along with their blood heir , thanks to the Emperor.
And I am not invested in Ben Solo's early years - because he dies at thirty, childless and unmourned.....thanks to the Emperor.


The Skywalkers WERE SW for me. Disney has erased them.
Not interested.
Sorry to be so nihilistic.
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Post by californiagirl on Sun 30 Aug 2020, 9:41 am

I keep wondering who was really controlling things over on the LF side of things. I think they know what WAS SW mythology and that it lasted 25,000 years because they decanonized it, since a lot of it wasn't good and limited what they could do. It's odd they focused so much on the Skywalker saga to finish it only to off them all. Though that feels like a "let Terrio and Iger do whatever they want" kind of thing. To a lot of people, the main series was SW, I get why that wasn't their focus until this point, but I'm having a hard time believing they didn't know about the rest of it.

The people who do/did understand SW mythos aren't in charge, but are individual creators, I'm not sure if KK is really in charge at this point, and Kiri Hart certainly wasn't, there's a reason she left around 2018 when everything went downhill. It sounds more like code for the fact that their options for the future timeline are limited. I don't want to them to rush to bring Ben Solo back, wait until you understand what you're doing and let people get nostalgic about him. People were already getting nostalgic for the Resistance show yesterday. I never expected it to happen soon, honestly I kind of want them to move away from that for a while. Kneejerk reactions where they scramble to make people happy don't make good content (see TROS).
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Post by Piper Maru on Sun 30 Aug 2020, 11:25 am

It's very simple: they didn't think that they were "finishing off" the Skywalker line by killing Ben off, because they thought Rey Skywalker™ would be "meaningful" and represent that "everyone can be a Skywalker" and how the "family is going to live forever because now it's a legacy, not a bloodline". I mean, it's an extremely dumb/tone deaf idea and it's amazing to me how they didn't realize this in +5 years.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 30 Aug 2020, 11:26 am

I honestly don't know who's responsible for DROSS. Whether it's the stupid belief that modern women no longer need men, a desire to pander to the fandom menace, those in charge or the idiots they chose to write and direct it.
Fact is, what's done is done. DROSS is the worst SW film ever made, and Disney refuse to accept it. Instead they think those upset at them killing off the last Skywalker and replacing him with the last Palpatine will be satisfied with yet another 'before it all happened' adventure. Which achieves nothing except to make us even more depressed knowing the character's fate.
Their golden trio were a massive commercial failure and they won't admit it. I recently saw an interview with Daisy in which she said she'd had a job finding work post DROSS, which is a darn shame. I think she has projects lined up now, but for all his supposed affection for her, Abrams did her no favours by reducing her role to that of an unlikeable, tedious Mary Sue.
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Post by californiagirl on Sun 30 Aug 2020, 11:49 am

I think they didn't realize it was bad because I don't think they had decided on Rey Skywalker the spiritual heir to the family until TROS, maybe even TROS reshoots. I think there was even a Kiri quote about how Rey wasn't a Skywalker. And it seems a very small number of people decided what went down in that movie and why, who could tell them no?


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Post by karamelreylo on Sun 30 Aug 2020, 1:59 pm

@Piper Maru wrote:It's very simple: they didn't think that they were "finishing off" the Skywalker line by killing Ben off, because they thought Rey Skywalker™ would be "meaningful" and represent that "everyone can be a Skywalker" and how the "family is going to live forever because now it's a legacy, not a bloodline". I mean, it's an extremely dumb/tone deaf idea and it's amazing to me how they didn't realize this in +5 years.
@Piper Maru

I've been lurking for a couple years now on this message board, and I thought it's everyone can be a Jedi, not everyone can be a Skywalker.

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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 30 Aug 2020, 2:03 pm

Well said.
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Post by Saracene on Sun 30 Aug 2020, 4:08 pm

If everyone can be a Skywalker, what -is- a “Skywalker”? Just some combination of generic positive personal qualities? And what about the dark side of being a blood Skywalker that in the end ruined Ben’s life and made him a target? It makes no sense to have a character in the story for whom being a Skywalker was a burden, and then treat being a Skywalker as a shining prize with no downsides for another character.

And it’s not true that everyone can be a Jedi, even. You’re either born with a magic blood that makes you force-sensitive, or you’re not, being a Jedi is not something that you can simply achieve through determination and hard work. Sure you can look at it as more of “a Jedi can be born anywhere”, but was this really a necessary corrective for a series where the previous protagonists started out as a humble farm boy and a slave? Humble beginnings was always a staple of SW movies.
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Post by Piper Maru on Sun 30 Aug 2020, 4:45 pm

It all comes down to turning "Skywalker" into a brand (more than it is); a lifestyle that you could buy at their theme park, take pictures and then post on Instagram. It's cynical, but it's what they did with Rey. She's the perfect avatar for Galaxy's Edge. A blank canvas to show you that everyone can be a Skywalker too! Just go to our park and build your own lightsaber and believe that your love for Luke&Leia is enough to make you related to them on a "spiritual" level. What a nice experience, right?

The Star Wars mythos and competent storytelling were low on their list of priorities. They thought they were taking the easiest route to make money and calm down the online dudebros (who are going to stick around no matter what crappy product they put out there).
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Mon 31 Aug 2020, 2:30 am

My brother's friend, a big comic book fan, said after watching Batman Versus Superman that the film was more like a video game - no story, no plot, just an endless series of action sequences. Terrio was the writer for that as well.
He's had that kind of criticism several times so I was genuinely bewildered that DLF chose him to write TROS.
As I've said before, in the past spin offs like theme parks were meant to compliment the films. Disney are now treating the films as the spin offs.

And as a woman, we don't need female characters like Rey, role models who only look good because all the male characters have been emasculated, and who are essentially reduced to being Barbie dolls. Leia may very well have had second billing to Luke in the OT but she was MILES better than Rey.
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Post by californiagirl on Mon 31 Aug 2020, 10:41 am

Generally the people who say the men of the ST are emasculated are the same ones who hate TLJ and Rose and Holdo, and always hated Rey, and wanted Luke to be his Legends EU demigod self, and think Poe is a bad*** who is always right, and that Kylo is a whiny emo manbaby. Certain words and phrases can be indicative of certain more general attitudes and worldviews. If anything, I thought the women of TROS were all treated badly, Rose sidelined, Jannah and Zorii are there just to validate Finn and Poe and not be anything of their own, Rey has nothing of her own either anymore, just an adult adoptee and vessel for dead people with no relationships, identity, purpose, or future. Admittedly, the guy characters weren't done justice either, really no one in TROS was.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Mon 31 Aug 2020, 11:42 am

Well, I myself aren't one of them!
I'm genuinely worried how many companies Disney are buying up. Pixar, Marvel, Lucasfilm. Nothing worse than a single corporation owning everything. They rather remind me of the Borg from Star Trek, gobbling up everything and assimilating them into one.
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Post by Piper Maru on Mon 31 Aug 2020, 12:48 pm

@californiagirl wrote: If anything, I thought the women of TROS were all treated badly, Rose sidelined, Jannah and Zorii are there just to validate Finn and Poe and not be anything of their own, Rey has nothing of her own either anymore, just an adult adoptee and vessel for dead people with no relationships, identity, purpose, or future. Admittedly, the guy characters weren't done justice either, really no one in TROS was.
@californiagirl

I agree with this so much. TROS is one of the most misogynistic movies I've ever watched. All the female characters are either props (notably Zorii and Jannah as a way of Disney saying "no homo in mah Star Wars") or have absolutely no agency and live in service of the men in their stories (Leia and Rey).
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Post by Piper Maru on Mon 31 Aug 2020, 12:54 pm

Don't even get me started on Rose.
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Post by karamelreylo on Mon 31 Aug 2020, 12:55 pm

@Saracene wrote:If everyone can be a Skywalker, what -is- a “Skywalker”? Just some combination of generic positive personal qualities? And what about the dark side of being a blood Skywalker that in the end ruined Ben’s life and made him a target? It makes no sense to have a character in the story for whom being a Skywalker was a burden, and then treat being a Skywalker as a shining prize with no downsides for another character.

And it’s not true that everyone can be a Jedi, even. You’re either born with a magic blood that makes you force-sensitive, or you’re not, being a Jedi is not something that you can simply achieve through determination and hard work. Sure you can look at it as more of “a Jedi can be born anywhere”, but was this really a necessary corrective for a series where the previous protagonists started out as a humble farm boy and a slave? Humble beginnings was always a staple of SW movies.

Yeah, I understand. I guess the best expression would be anyone could be a Jedi.

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Post by motherofpearl1 on Mon 31 Aug 2020, 2:29 pm

@Piper Maru wrote:Don't even get me started on Rose.

Absolutely sure Rose was ditched because she was Rian's creation.

I loved her. Another thing I hated TROS for.
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Post by Piper Maru on Mon 31 Aug 2020, 2:50 pm

@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@Piper Maru wrote:Don't even get me started on Rose.

Absolutely sure Rose was ditched because she was Rian's creation.

I loved her. Another thing I hated TROS for.
@motherofpearl1

It was a monstrosity how they treated the character and the actress. Even if we ignore the narrative's flaws, it's impossible to gloss over what they did to KMT.
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Post by Saracene on Mon 31 Aug 2020, 4:22 pm

To be fair I always expected Rose’s role in the last film to be much smaller. Rian devised her character for a very specific purpose of serving Finn’s arc in TLJ and she just existed in a bubble with Finn and had no real ties to any other main character. Once that arc was over there was no clear purpose to her character left apart from being Finn’s love interest. But they even ditched that. I didn’t really care for Finn and Rose’s relationship in TLJ but their early scenes together had some promise and potential of a cute couple.
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Post by snufkin on Mon 31 Aug 2020, 11:43 pm

"How can our movie be misogynistic when we gave Leia a lightsaber at last and made it rose gold for the young ladies!" Anyways, the "aspirational Skywalker" business makes me think of this exchange when TFA was getting the hype for its roll-out (a more civilized era)

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Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue 01 Sep 2020, 2:27 am

I miss those days.
So much optimism back then.
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Post by californiagirl on Wed 02 Sep 2020, 11:12 am

A long interview/article about John. Being this open about racism often puts people of color at risk because they are then seen as "difficult." It went kind of viral, beyond the SW fans, and of course people have to shoot it down as they often do. Whatever stuff he did with pitting himself and fans against other fans, it was a while ago and it looks like he's in a better place, I would be surprised if he does that again. He can think whatever he wants, even if I don't really understand the rationale behind some of it. 100% right about the POC characters not getting treated well.

https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/culture/article/john-boyega-interview-2020

And then Disney dropped the date for new Mandalorian episodes (October 30), which was pretty brazenly to push down the interview, didn't even have a trailer, so when people search SW today, they'll find Mando and Baby Yoda trending instead. It's really tactless and obvious and desperate.
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Post by Mila95 on Wed 02 Sep 2020, 11:34 am

I agree he made good points and talked about things that needed to be talked about for things to get better. I don't agree with this stance that basically only as a jedi Finn could be a important or lead character but it's obvious that they didn't know what to do with the character and that he was used for marketing and then that didn't live up to the hype in the movies. I just don't get this total lack of blaming JJ while blaming it all on Rian. I mean I get not liking his arc in TLJ, I didn't like the execution of it either but TFA is where he was used as decoy for Rey's reveal as the real lead, where he was made a janitor and TROS is where he did nothing but follow Rey around and his force sensitivity was so irrelevant you wouldn't know it was there without reading cast interviews. He mentions Kelly and Naomi but JJ's movie gave them zero to do, not Rian's who didn't even cast Naomi and has nothing to do with it and actually gave Rose a big storyline.

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Post by motherofpearl1 on Wed 02 Sep 2020, 11:48 am

Personally I thought Rian didn't do anyone a disservice.
Finn might have started out a comical character but post Canto Bight he was anything but. He took command of the situation when they were on the Supremacy, stood up to Hux, killed Phasma, and was willing to die for the Resistance.
Like Poe his character matured in TLJ, TROS should have made him the leader of the stormtrooper rebellion but JJ wasn't interested in anyone other than Rey.
Being FS isn't the most important thing - Han Solo wasn't FS, and he became the most popular character in the OT.

I will say this though - Finn had more screen time in TROS than Kylo, even if most of the time he spent shouting for Rey.
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Post by californiagirl on Wed 02 Sep 2020, 12:31 pm

Finn did go from the A plot in TFA to the B plot in the sequels, which was a sucky thing for him. Yet it was JJ who separated him from Rey and left him in a coma? And made him a non-character in TROS? Guess it was all Rian's fault? And I found his comment that he was the only cast member to have his experience defined by race and death threats, which was absolutely the case from the moment he first appeared in the first teaser almost 6 years ago, kind of odd. Kelly Marie anyone? It made headlines? She wrote a NYT piece about it? Trying to forget that he said leaving social media because of haters was mentally weak. But again, it would seem he's matured since then. He seems so focused now. He has a right to be mad, the ST and its marketing weren't good to him, even pushing back against clothing and hairstyles he wanted on press tour.
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Post by Kylo Rey on Wed 02 Sep 2020, 3:27 pm

He has every right to be mad and angry, his character was royally screwed over. Although I do think his frustration is misplaced. I would direct that ire towards JJ Abrams, who took a very interesting character as conceived, and wasted all the potential almost immediately. It may sound dramatic, but the way TFA completely undermines Finn’s background as a defected stormtrooper trying to overcome his conditioning and instead slotted in some nonsensical happy go lucky comic relief characterisation ensured that basically no writer/director, no matter how talented they were, would be able to pick up the pieces and make something of the character. The potential was utterly squandered right from the beginning. And then it’s compounded by the fact that you have to maintain an arc over three acts — a trilogy. So in view of that I don’t entirely blame RJ for slightly retreading Finn’s arc in TLJ, but I can’t discount that it was nevertheless easily the weakest part of a movie I really like, even if it’s thematically very important to the trilogy. These can coexist. In addition, B plots aren’t always something to be sniffed at (case in point - Han and Leia is the strongest part of Empire Strikes Back), but putting myself in JB’s shoes, it had to have been quite the come down after you were promised that you were going to be the star of the trilogy (which is what he was promised by Abrams). I would pin the blame on that one on JJ though, given he was the one who separated Finn and Rey in the first place.

Do I think some of JB’s qualms lie with superficial elements that don’t automatically equal a better character e.g. screentime, being a Jedi, being a part of the Rey plot? Yes. He’s not the first actor to think like that though. And a young black man coming aboard a global franchise with his major breakthrough being hampered by a bait and switch marketing campaign will always be unforgivable. Snatching that hope away from black people who still rarely get to see themselves as the protagonists of major franchises was cruel. This backlash has been brewing and formenting for years, and LFL could have nipped it in the bud if they had put out a statement over TFM and racist backlash, and actually supported their actors instead of leaving them hung out to dry. A lot of this is on them. Shameful, but perhaps not unexpected from a capitalist mega corporation.

I’ve been frustrated at JB’s January antics and such, but I’ve cooled on it, I just wish he had directed his frustration towards Disney/LFL instead of taking it out on fans. Racism is a systematic issue. Puzzled at the idea of him being so loyal to Abrams too, but I might have to chalk that up to residual gratefulness (Abrams cast him after all) and him being a very powerful Hollywood producer. In a very white dominated cutthroat industry, you don’t want to burn those bridges. Although he may have done so with Disney? I’m also gonna have to bring up Daisy’s ridiculously tonedeaf “I don’t have privilege” interview, where she painted her experiences growing up as the same as John’s. Any criticism of her was decried as misogyny, but what she said was clueless. Doesn’t help that she’s been painted as a feminist icon and has accrued that as part of her public image for playing a movie character LOL. Peak white feminism.

Anyway, that was a long, rambling, but surprisingly cool headed screed from me on this matter Laughing I suppose it helps that I’ve taken a step back from this franchise in the last few months, which has gained me a new sense of perspective. I haven’t even gotten into how (as a POC and Asian myself) this franchise shamelessly appropriates East Asian tropes, design, story etc. but does wrong by its Asian characters. It’s tiring.


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