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One Year On - What's it like for you?

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Post by DeeBee on Mon 21 Dec 2020, 2:37 am

Popping in to share this one before I lose it lol... this one is more positive in tone.. the thoughts on Ben Solo’s death were...less positive.
The Rise of Skywalker: How does it hold up after one year? From dork side of the force, by Tom Farr
https://dorksideoftheforce.com/2020/12/20/the-rise-of-skywalker-one-year-anniversary/
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Post by Kyla Ren on Mon 21 Dec 2020, 3:08 am

@DeeBee wrote:Popping in to share this one before I lose it lol... this one is more positive in tone.. the thoughts on Ben Solo’s death were...less positive.
The Rise of Skywalker: How does it hold up after one year? From dork side of the force, by Tom Farr
https://dorksideoftheforce.com/2020/12/20/the-rise-of-skywalker-one-year-anniversary/
@DeeBee

Thanks for posting that. It was interesting to hear what he had to say. And, of course, I totally agree that Ben shouldn't have died at the end of the movie. I will never get over what they did to him. Sad

I was just watching a YouTube video where someone edited the movie footage and fixed the ending so that Ben didn't die, and in the comments section, some people said that the audience clapped and/or cheered at the Reylo kiss in the theater and then were like, ????? when Ben died. Sad I really think DLF made a HUGE mistake when they killed Ben. Sad I mean, I know there are fans that absolutely hate the idea of Reylo, but it's impossible to please every single corner of the fandom, and I'm really starting to think that a lot of fans and general audience members would have been fine, or even happy, with an ending where Ben lived and he and Rey walked off into the binary sunset together. Of course there would have been some people who hated it. But there are a lot of people who hate the movie anyway. Kylo/Ben was, and still is, such a popular character and Adam did such a great job portraying him. I think DLF made one of their biggest mistakes ever when they killed him off. Sad
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Post by Moonjump05 on Sun 27 Dec 2020, 2:40 pm

Over one year later, and I have still not spoken to a person irl who was upset at reylo.

Not a one.

The fake anti outrage ruined the ST.
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Post by Kylo Rey on Tue 29 Dec 2020, 9:34 am

One year on - still really dislike TROS. Did a rewatch when it came out in HD back in March and it was as bafflingly bizarre and terrible as my first viewing. You'd probably have to pay me to get me to watch it again Laughing

At first I must admit the disappointment was hard to stomach, a natural result of being invested in the ST for 5+ years, I guess. But there was also the realisation that this movie singlehandedly put the kibosh on my love for SW entirely, as dramatic as that may sound, a franchise that I've loved since I was a teenager. Doesn't help that nothing on the SW horizon really appeals to me, I dropped Mando halfway through S1 because I found it boring - there was no real substance to it or meat on the bones, so to speak. Was stewing in TROS hatred for a good six months, but then at some point, had to take a step back, gain some perspective, and that no amount of complaining day in and day out was going to transform that horrible movie into something good. Also, the intensely toxic SW fandom doesn't exactly foster a healthy environment. Previously I could stick it out based on love for the ST, but with that in tatters, what reason is there to stick it out, really? So while it was difficult, initially, SW is very much in the rear view for me now, and I've found other interests and distractions - for one, I've been watching A LOT of films this year, expanding my cinematic palette, and that's been so much fun, especially delving into old Hollywood cinema!

Do I sometimes have intense pangs of longing for the lost potential of the ST and the great discussions we used to have, especially circa TLJ? Yes! But overall, I feel in a much better place now. But hey, if Rian Johnson ever comes back for his trilogy, then I'll be back for another round Laughing


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Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue 29 Dec 2020, 5:06 pm

Only thing I'd come back for is the return of Ben Solo.

I personally will never get over them killing off every Skywalker/Solo. And replacing him with the villain's granddaughter. Still can't believe it, even now.
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Post by californiagirl on Thu 31 Dec 2020, 8:24 pm

Woof, Mark said (spoilers for Mando) that he made the scene with Luke was for the true fans. 2020 just had to be lame until the end. Never mind the "true fans" he's referring to are still mad about the same things they've been made about for 5-20+ years, really not a great choice for a target audience, especially on LF's end.
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Post by karamelreylo on Fri 01 Jan 2021, 9:20 am

@californiagirl wrote:Woof, Mark said (spoilers for Mando) that he made the scene with Luke was for the true fans. 2020 just had to be lame until the end. Never mind the "true fans" he's referring to are still mad about the same things they've been made about for 5-20+ years, really not a great choice for a target audience, especially on LF's end.
@californiagirl

Jesus, I loathe the expression "true fans". That really pisses me off. So I'm not a true fan because I love the PT and romance was one of the things that drew me into Star Wars in the first place. I don't like just any science fiction/fantasy. You have to truly capture my heart.

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Post by DeeBee on Fri 01 Jan 2021, 10:40 pm

@karamelreylo wrote:
@californiagirl wrote:Woof, Mark said (spoilers for Mando) that he made the scene with Luke was for the true fans. 2020 just had to be lame until the end. Never mind the "true fans" he's referring to are still mad about the same things they've been made about for 5-20+ years, really not a great choice for a target audience, especially on LF's end.
@californiagirl

Jesus, I loathe the expression "true fans". That really pisses me off. So I'm not a true fan because I love the PT and romance was one of the things that drew me into Star Wars in the first place. I don't like just any science fiction/fantasy. You have to truly capture my heart.
@karamelreylo

Hear hear! It is indeed loathsome. I found the full MH quote.. looks like it was a few tweets?...
"Hamill wrote "#NoWords-Seeing fan's reactions to Luke's return is something I will cherish forever. Their anticipation seeing the X-Wing/Ep. 6 Robes/a lightsaber/a GREEN lightsaber/a gloved hand/an ungloved hand/a Force choke/R2-was OVERWHELMING & very moving to me-1/2

I'm a fan myself, so I knew true fans would love it, but to see them thrilled beyond belief with the exuberance of children, whooping it up, screaming in ecstasy, the tears of sheer joy...it's a rollercoaster of emotions I'll never forget. #I_LOVE_UPFs 2/2"" SOURCE

A year on, I'm feeling reflective today about SW and these references to 'true fans'. Why would this even be considered a thing? It's super interesting to me. Thoughts anyone?
I am guessing that the ‘true fan’ mantle is valued because it means you have the power to dictate what stories SW will tell, so you can demand what you want, expect the content creators will listen to you, and not be challenged or made to feel too uncomfortable. It stems from an attitude of entitlement. Maybe this entitlement comes from growing up with Star Wars, and participating in it's success. Spending years investing your money and energy into the expanded universe, and having a sense of ownership about the brand.  
To LFL this 'true fan' mindset is both a blessing and a curse. As @californiagirl said so well! They are extremely demanding about a show made for children, and this can be limiting.

I suspect these entitled fans [aka 'true fans'] may be right to feel this entitlement, and that LFL does indeed currently prioritise giving ‘true fans’ what they want. It pains me to say this.
It is evident in LFL's need to constantly declare that so and so who was responsible for such and such SW content is a true fan.. Like SW content is sacred and only the worthy can work on it.
It is also evident in the way loud, disgruntled, unhappy 'true fans' hated the Last Jedi, and were listened to in the final TROS product. All their TLJ boo boos were soothed! e.g. Rose Tico was practically wiped from the story, Luke chastised throwing your lightsaber, Rey did Jedi training stuff, Rey inherited her powers via her bloodline, Kylo/Ben died, and there was the assumption that Jedi are good/Sith are bad and don't think too deeply about the flaws of the Jedi!....need I go on?
LFL foster this idea of 'true fans'. Being a vocal 'true fan' seems to have paid off.. and this entitlement has been reinforced by LFL.
So, while I loathe the idea of ‘true fans’ maybe this is currently the reality???? and if MH is saying it, this gives it legitimacy too doesn't it? it leads me to wonder if SW was ever really for me...

A year on, I'm thinking LFL's indebtedness to 'true fans' ultimately led to the minimising of Reylo. It was not completely erased from the narrative, but 'true fans' (who actually buy and read all the books!) were quickly reassured in the book it was just gratitude right?!
I think the concept of Reylo made many long time SW fans very uncomfortable (especially 'true fans'). And that was a big mistake by LFL. I think LFL didn't follow through with telling that story, they lost their nerve, and tried to backtrack on it once they realised how angry the 'true fans' were about it IMHO. Isn't it interesting to consider if the so called 'true fans' are gate keeping not just with reylos - but LFL itself?! LFL has in essence reinforced the view that 'true fans' dictate what stories SW tells. My goodness.. Had GL seen things that way, we never would have gotten the PT!

Reylo challenged people. Others may see this as a failing on the part of the audience, but I don't see it that way these days. I blame LFL. I actually remember feeling extremely uncomfortable with the vibe of what I was sensing in the interrogation scene when I went to the theatre to see TFA (once!). I felt extremely uneasy, and I had no idea what to do with it. I didn't return to TFA for a year, and when I did - I found Reylos and then suddenly I had a way of making sense of what I was seeing, of accommodating the vibe I was picking up on between Rey and Kylo. Then, I was able to engage with SW again.
I think for others, they dismissed the vibe of that interrogation scene instead, and this was why there was such a strong reaction to it (and to Kylo Ren) by many fans who declared it mind rape or whatever they were saying at the time. They picked up on the sexual undertones, but took it in the opposite direction to Reylos. And then they were able to continue to engage with SW too.

Looking back, I think LFL was asking too much of the audience, especially when they were floating a variety of competing/incompatible narratives at the time for what the Rey/Kylo relationship could wind up being. I just happened to go with the Reylo narrative and I could probably just as easily gone with the opposite had I not happened upon the musings of reylos online! I'm not gifted with any particular insight lol. Far from it. I blame LFL for not taking more care with how the story unfolded... (and then not fully committing!). The idea of Reylo could have been genius, but the execution ultimately in my view, tragically sucked. Enemies to lovers needs to be done with care. Anything involving the legacy characters and their offspring, needs to be done with care! Especially if it is somewhat emotionally challenging!
One example of how LFL didn't take adequate care - SW should never have toyed with Rey and Kylo being related, that should have been shot down immediately, explicitly. However, they shot down nothing. Instead they fanned the flames of debate in the fandom, and fostered all the different theories out there, and so the discomfort grew, and the different camps became more and more committed to their own views. And people with a 'true fan' mindset tend toward being entitled and dogmatic which IMHO only makes that worse.
It is stunning to me that a major SW forum could have banned any discussion of Reylo very early in the ST, and then in the final movie the two characters actually kissed?! And ended up being a rare force dyad- which apparently is an extremely significant connection, and this is explicitly acknowledged in the canon we got. Not hinted at. This was a massive gatekeeping blunder.
Has anyone actually analysed and acknowledged that elephant in the room? Any discussion of that in the fandom at all? Anything I’m missing here peeps?
This is all just my musings.. not wishing to present my thoughts as authoritative, but certainly interesting to explore! Anyone have thoughts on this? Peace!!! And Happy New Year all.. here's hoping 2021 is a better year! sunny
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Post by Kyla Ren on Sat 02 Jan 2021, 8:21 am

@DeeBee

I agree with so much of what you said.  I’ve been thinking a lot lately about Reylo, the ST as a whole, and the entire Star Wars fandom in general and what has happened over the last few years since the release of TFA.  And one thing I keep thinking is, how did everything go so wrong?  From the fan backlash against Disney/Lucasfilm to the hate between the different factions of the fandom, to the hostility towards Reylos and the entire concept of Reylo, to how a trilogy that got off to such a great start (in my opinion) with TFA, ended up with the mess we got in TROS.  It just completely baffles me.  I guess there were a lot of different factors involved.  A book could probably be written about it. LOL

Looking back now, I think you’re probably right that they should have made it very clear from the beginning that Kylo and Rey were not related.  Instead they let fan theories run wild, probably thinking that it would keep the conversation alive and interest in the trilogy at a high level between films.  And I guess it did keep people talking and guessing.  But that might also have been part of the problem, because I think a lot of people became very attached to their headcanons, and as a result were very disappointed when things didn’t go the way they thought.  When Luke said, “This is not going to go the way you think,” he wasn’t kidding.  I think a lot of people really freaked out, not just because of Reylo but because TLJ took things in an unexpected direction, at least for a lot of the fanbase.

I also wonder if Reylo was even ever a definite part of the overarching plot of the ST.  I mean, JJ set up a lot of things in TFA that were left up to the next directors.  He didn’t know at that time that he would be directing TROS.  There is a post on Reddit from about a year ago where someone claiming to have a source, said that JJ was against Reylo and didn’t like the Reylo kiss in TROS, but that LFL insisted that it be included.  Now, whether or not this is true, who really knows.  But looking back, I can think of a few things that do make me wonder if JJ ever really intended for full, romantic Reylo to be endgame.  There are some things that make me think he did, but there are also some other things that make me think that maybe he didn’t.  Or that maybe he intended Reylo to just be a one-sided villainous crush on Kylo’s part.  Or maybe he really didn’t have a definite endgame in mind at all and he kind of set things up to be ambiguous and just left it for Rian and Colin to deal with as they wanted.

I’m just not sure what to think anymore.  Even though I was extremely disappointed with the way TROS turned out, a part of me is starting to think that we’re lucky we got any Reylo at all in that movie.  It’s really sad, too, because Reylo could have been one of the great epic romances of all time.  But they really dropped the ball, unfortunately. Sad

It also makes me sad to hear the rumors that they might decanonize the ST.  I don’t know if they would actually do that, but who knows.  I guess we’ll have to wait and see, but if they do decanonize it, I think I’ll probably be done with Star Wars for good.  I’m already kind of done with it now.  I really have no interest in any of their upcoming projects, and while I have been watching the Mandalorian, I think it’s just okay.  It’s not something I’m excited about, especially after how badly they botched TROS.

Anyway, Happy New Year to everyone.  Let’s hope better days are ahead.
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Post by unicorn on Sun 03 Jan 2021, 6:08 am

@DeeBee

I´m not a "true fan", too.

Obviously, the "true fan" cares only about 5 things:
A never aging and never developing Luke with his stupid green lightsaber, evil Vader, lightsaber fights and spacebattles, good rebels vs. bad empire, that´s it. Everything else is ignored and has no place  in their decades old headcanons. And therefore, everything Star Wars, that doesn´t fit their headcanons, is not "real" Star Wars.
The movies I watched and liked for decades told me sth. slightly different, but whatever, that´s probably because I´m not a "true fan", aka fanboi or dudebro, male and female. And MH is of course one of the greatest fanbois. Smile

@Kyla Ren
Of course they should have made at least clear from the beginning that they are not related, but DLF wanted and stoked the buzz in any direction, because buzz brings money. Only that it backfired royally at the end and that serves them right.
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Post by Angharad on Sun 03 Jan 2021, 6:21 am

Hello all. When I saw The Rise of Skywalker in December 2019 I had the thought that it was an omen of the tragic and nihilistic direction of popular storytelling. A year later that impression rings truer than ever. In my mind the sequel trilogy's failure cannot be dissociated from the increasing bifurcation of American politics and culture. It was a victim of the 'Culture War' from both sides with reactionary conservative nostalgics on one and rabid moralising wokesters on the other. The Last Jedi was rejected because it dared to dream of a world free from easy tribalism and simplistic black-and-white narratives. We witnessed this in the reactions of both the Fandom Menace and the anti-Reylo crowd.

The Rise of Skywalker shattered the love I'd built for Star Wars since I saw The Force Awakens in 2017. I haven't been able to put the pieces of that love together again and I suspect they'll lay where they fell forever. When I think about the potential of Reylo and The Last Jedi I feel immense sadness and anger. I also feel a desire to seek that potential in other stories and even in my own life. I have no interest in whatever nostalgic offal Disney-Lucasfilm cook up. It has become clear to me that most Star Wars fans are not interested in stories; they are interested only in the spectacle of the Star Wars universe with its attendant objects, lore and characters who are not allowed to be more than unchanging self-insert ciphers. Star Wars is a dead end for people who want meaningful and forward-looking stories with heart.

Most of all The Rise of Skywalker was a much-needed dose of reality that I had become someone who worships and makes excuses for corporate storytelling. For two years I let myself become consumed by Star Wars and made it part of my identity. It's not that enjoying corporate stories is bad but I am embarrassed by how much I trusted a f*cking multi-national soulless corporation to tell a mythic and revolutionary narrative. The Last Jedi was an aberration and it was punished for stepping out of line with the corporate agenda. I have become cynical of big-budget franchise storytelling in general. There is one exception - the game series The Last of Us delivered an incredible sequel this year that succeeded its predecessor in narrative quality and emotional power, becoming possibly my favourite game ever - but for the most part these days I seek out auteur or indie works.

I continue to believe that if Episode IX had been a good-faith sequel to The Last Jedi then the weaknesses inherent to the sequel trilogy (the false start that was The Force Awakens) could have been recontextualised and redeemed. When I re-watched The Last Jedi a few months after December 2019 I thought it would be painful but would you believe that it kind of made me forget that The Rise of Skywalker existed? Rian Johnson's creative vision is bright and clear as day. He wrote Rey as a nobody. Reylo was real and passionate. And hope meant something. The Rise of Skywalker can pout and stamp but none of its petty retcons can erase the incandescence of The Last Jedi's storytelling. I came away from that viewing with the conviction that The Rise of Skywalker is the cinematic equivalent of a changeling. It's illegitimate in body and spirit. Something about watching The Last Jedi again gave me peace... not because it made The Rise of Skywalker bearable, but because it felt like confirmation that there was a time when the sequel trilogy was made with sincerity and love and the goal of creating something beautiful. I love The Last Jedi for that beauty even though it was brief.

The Last Jedi's transparency of intent also gave me confidence to reject The Rise of Skywalker as inevitable and authoritative. I reject that Rey is a Palpatine. I reject the death of Ben Solo. I reject the squandering of themes and characters from the previous eight movies. There is no universe where anything in that movie was envisioned while Rian Johnson wrote The Last Jedi. The canon's integrity was irrevocably tarnished by The Rise of Skywalker and as such canon is meaningless to me now. I just don't accept The Rise of Skywalker as an authentic ending to the Skywalker story. It broke the illusion of storytelling authority required to buy into the concept of a canon.

I like to daydream that one I'll write a book-length fanfic of my Episode IX headcanon and have it illustrated by a fandom artist. It won't happen but it's soothing to imagine. Wishing you all good luck.

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Post by karamelreylo on Sun 03 Jan 2021, 8:38 am

@unicorn wrote:@DeeBee

I´m not a "true fan", too.

Obviously, the "true fan" cares only about 5 things:
A never aging and never developing Luke with his stupid green lightsaber, evil Vader, lightsaber fights and spacebattles, good rebels vs. bad empire, that´s it. Everything else is ignored and has no place  in their decades old headcanons. And therefore, everything Star Wars, that doesn´t fit their headcanons, is not "real" Star Wars.
The movies I watched and liked for decades told me sth. slightly different, but whatever, that´s probably because I´m not a "true fan", aka fanboi or dudebro, male and female. And MH is of course one of the greatest fanbois. Smile

@Kyla Ren
Of course they should have made at least clear from the beginning that they are not related, but DLF wanted and stoked the buzz in any direction, because buzz brings money. Only that it backfired royally at the end and that serves them right.
@unicorn

Exactly, I guess the true fans are the ones who only care about action and spectacle. I thought Star Wars could be for everyone, but maybe, my mom was right with shunning Star Wars except the one time she took my brother and me to see The Phantom Menace after school to see the movie a second time (my dad took my brother and me the first time we saw it). As I said earlier, though, I still don't see myself giving up Star Wars completely. I'm in this fandom for life, and I still take pleasure from Reylo and Anidala fanfiction. I feel like TROS is just someone's bad fanfiction, which is also how I think of the Cursed Child in the Harry Potter franchise.

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Post by californiagirl on Mon 04 Jan 2021, 2:38 pm

The funny thing is that LF has virtually buried Rey Palpatine, and only occasionally refers to Rey as a Skywalker, no merchandise with either of those monikers on them. They mention TROS as little as possible, though they still try to push it as hopeful and happy, just with the controversial details stripped of it. There's still quite a lot of Ben Solo Lives sentiment in the fandom too.

I saw a post that said the only way for SW to be viable in the long run would be a post-TROS animated series with the ST characters, including Ben, otherwise they won't get back the new, younger audience they gained in the past 5 years. But for now, they're focusing on all the TV ever, and the High Republic launches as we speak. Some Reylo-friendly podcasters have already said nice things about the first book, who knows. But even this very ambitious multi-phase publishing endeavor doesn't bring in as much of a new audience as a film (TFA/TLJ) or show (Mando) does. TROS and all the other things that have been done have been terrible enough, both in their content and for how they treated their audiences and actors, I root for SW to be good mainly so people don't have to suffer through things like this continuously.

Honestly, some of the people at LF and Disney will have to leave for their reactionary, wishy-washy approach and super-narrow view of what "real" SW is to change.

Anyway, books (mostly female-written) have been a great balm this year.
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Post by Geralt_Riv on Tue 05 Jan 2021, 4:05 pm

One Year On - What's it like for you?  - Page 2 Bezety11
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue 05 Jan 2021, 4:16 pm

Oh, I love it.
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Post by DeeBee on Wed 06 Jan 2021, 11:31 pm

@Kyla Ren wrote:@DeeBee
I agree with so much of what you said.  I’ve been thinking a lot lately about Reylo, the ST as a whole, and the entire Star Wars fandom in general and what has happened over the last few years since the release of TFA.  And one thing I keep thinking is, how did everything go so wrong?  From the fan backlash against Disney/Lucasfilm to the hate between the different factions of the fandom, to the hostility towards Reylos and the entire concept of Reylo, to how a trilogy that got off to such a great start (in my opinion) with TFA, ended up with the mess we got in TROS.  It just completely baffles me.  I guess there were a lot of different factors involved.  A book could probably be written about it. LOL

- I actually would spend money on that book lol.

@Kyla Ren wrote:@DeeBee
Looking back now, I think you’re probably right that they should have made it very clear from the beginning that Kylo and Rey were not related.  Instead they let fan theories run wild, probably thinking that it would keep the conversation alive and interest in the trilogy at a high level between films.  And I guess it did keep people talking and guessing.  But that might also have been part of the problem, because I think a lot of people became very attached to their headcanons, and as a result were very disappointed when things didn’t go the way they thought.  When Luke said, “This is not going to go the way you think,” he wasn’t kidding.  I think a lot of people really freaked out, not just because of Reylo but because TLJ took things in an unexpected direction, at least for a lot of the fanbase.
I agree all the headcanons were a big problem. I think LFL should have taken this into consideration to address this while expanding the story.
I underestimated how big a barrier this would be to people accepting the story. I think LFL did too.
Is it fair of me to expect of LFL more than I expect of myself? I think it is – because there was evidence this was happening already after TFA – very early on and they didn’t do anything to address it, they instead poured fuel on the fires! Also, since TROS I've seen no sign that they are doing anything differently here...
@Kyla Ren wrote:@DeeBee
I also wonder if Reylo was even ever a definite part of the overarching plot of the ST.  I mean, JJ set up a lot of things in TFA that were left up to the next directors.  He didn’t know at that time that he would be directing TROS.  There is a post on Reddit from about a year ago where someone claiming to have a source, said that JJ was against Reylo and didn’t like the Reylo kiss in TROS, but that LFL insisted that it be included.  Now, whether or not this is true, who really knows.  But looking back, I can think of a few things that do make me wonder if JJ ever really intended for full, romantic Reylo to be endgame.  There are some things that make me think he did, but there are also some other things that make me think that maybe he didn’t.  Or that maybe he intended Reylo to just be a one-sided villainous crush on Kylo’s part.  Or maybe he really didn’t have a definite endgame in mind at all and he kind of set things up to be ambiguous and just left it for Rian and Colin to deal with as they wanted.

I’m just not sure what to think anymore.  Even though I was extremely disappointed with the way TROS turned out, a part of me is starting to think that we’re lucky we got any Reylo at all in that movie.  It’s really sad, too, because Reylo could have been one of the great epic romances of all time.  But they really dropped the ball, unfortunately. Sad  
If I had to guess, I think some version of Reylo was always a part of the overarching plot. But, it would not surprise me if it was unclear and undefined by the makers – leaving their options open the whole time.. (like it seems to have been unclear throughout who were Rey’s parents). I think at a minimum, from TFA Rey and Kylo had a ‘connection’ – maybe it was just the force dyad stuff and nothing more – but for me that’s a version of Reylo…

@Kyla Ren wrote:@DeeBee
It also makes me sad to hear the rumors that they might decanonize the ST.  I don’t know if they would actually do that, but who knows.  I guess we’ll have to wait and see, but if they do decanonize it, I think I’ll probably be done with Star Wars for good.  I’m already kind of done with it now.  I really have no interest in any of their upcoming projects, and while I have been watching the Mandalorian, I think it’s just okay.  It’s not something I’m excited about, especially after how badly they botched TROS.

Anyway, Happy New Year to everyone.  Let’s hope better days are ahead.
@Kyla Ren -Thanks for your reply! There is a rumour to decanonize ST?
That doesn’t seem likely.. but then I think of how they decanonized all the expanded universe so well.. anything is possible I guess!
@unicorn wrote:@DeeBee

I´m not a "true fan", too.

Obviously, the "true fan" cares only about 5 things:
A never aging and never developing Luke with his stupid green lightsaber, evil Vader, lightsaber fights and spacebattles, good rebels vs. bad empire, that´s it. Everything else is ignored and has no place  in their decades old headcanons. And therefore, everything Star Wars, that doesn´t fit their headcanons, is not "real" Star Wars.
The movies I watched and liked for decades told me sth. slightly different, but whatever, that´s probably because I´m not a "true fan", aka fanboi or dudebro, male and female. And MH is of course one of the greatest fanbois. Smile

@Kyla Ren
Of course they should have made at least clear from the beginning that they are not related, but DLF wanted and stoked the buzz in any direction, because buzz brings money. Only that it backfired royally at the end and that serves them right.
@unicorn
-Fans who love the lightsabers, evil vader, spacebattles etc? good luck to them. I don’t tell people what to like, they are free to like and not like what they want. But it’s not okay to act as Star Wars gatekeepers who define what is star wars and what is not. This kind of behaviour is going to be around.. and is not okay – but what concerns me at this point is how LFL has catered to these ‘true fans’, condoned and reinforced this behaviour. This tells me: There is more to come.. infact they will be as insufferable as ever when it comes to their gatekeeping and dictating of future SW content.
-Indeed stoking the buzz in all directions was the strategy. I agree it has backfired royally well put! I think with the ST they were expanding their audience and number of consumers. Post TROS, I think many new fans, and old fans who are not ‘true fans’ have gotten the message that SW is not being made for them. Thus, audience size is shrinking..

@Angharad wrote: Hello all. When I saw The Rise of Skywalker in December 2019 I had the thought that it was an omen of the tragic and nihilistic direction of popular storytelling. A year later that impression rings truer than ever. In my mind the sequel trilogy's failure cannot be dissociated from the increasing bifurcation of American politics and culture. It was a victim of the 'Culture War' from both sides with reactionary conservative nostalgics on one and rabid moralising wokesters on the other. The Last Jedi was rejected because it dared to dream of a world free from easy tribalism and simplistic black-and-white narratives. We witnessed this in the reactions of both the Fandom Menace and the anti-Reylo crowd.
-Yes, lots of people taking extreme opposing perspectives, while losing sight of our commonalities. It stifled discourse didn’t it. I can only speak for myself, but this has only amplified the sadness I’ve felt over losing my love for Star Wars with TROS…
@Angharad wrote:
The Rise of Skywalker shattered the love I'd built for Star Wars since I saw The Force Awakens in 2017. I haven't been able to put the pieces of that love together again and I suspect they'll lay where they fell forever. When I think about the potential of Reylo and The Last Jedi I feel immense sadness and anger. I also feel a desire to seek that potential in other stories and even in my own life. I have no interest in whatever nostalgic offal Disney-Lucasfilm cook up. It has become clear to me that most Star Wars fans are not interested in stories; they are interested only in the spectacle of the Star Wars universe with its attendant objects, lore and characters who are not allowed to be more than unchanging self-insert ciphers. Star Wars is a dead end for people who want meaningful and forward-looking stories with heart.
-Thanks for sharing, I think I pretty much share this viewpoint!
@Angharad wrote:
Most of all The Rise of Skywalker was a much-needed dose of reality that I had become someone who worships and makes excuses for corporate storytelling. For two years I let myself become consumed by Star Wars and made it part of my identity. It's not that enjoying corporate stories is bad but I am embarrassed by how much I trusted a f*cking multi-national soulless corporation to tell a mythic and revolutionary narrative. The Last Jedi was an aberration and it was punished for stepping out of line with the corporate agenda. I have become cynical of big-budget franchise storytelling in general. There is one exception - the game series The Last of Us delivered an incredible sequel this year that succeeded its predecessor in narrative quality and emotional power, becoming possibly my favourite game ever - but for the most part these days I seek out auteur or indie works.  
-I don’t know of The last of us- I’m glad you found something you liked!
Interesting thought this – are we wise to trust in corporate storytelling? What’s everyone else thinking?
I went through a phase of thinking: ‘I should never have trusted a big money making machine to give me a good story in the first place! My mistake!!!’
Eventually however, I concluded that no, I was NOT wrong to hope for a good story that was consistent with the SW saga that came before it, even from a big corporation, as I really wasn’t actually asking that much! I was just after some basic storytelling!
But now I’ve seen what the big corporation did with the ST – the question is, do I continue to hope?? And give them another try?
I figure this is up to each of us to decide for ourselves if we wish to keep hoping.. or not.
@Angharad wrote:  I continue to believe that if Episode IX had been a good-faith sequel to The Last Jedi then the weaknesses inherent to the sequel trilogy (the false start that was The Force Awakens) could have been recontextualised and redeemed. When I re-watched The Last Jedi a few months after December 2019 I thought it would be painful but would you believe that it kind of made me forget that The Rise of Skywalker existed? Rian Johnson's creative vision is bright and clear as day. He wrote Rey as a nobody. Reylo was real and passionate. And hope meant something. The Rise of Skywalker can pout and stamp but none of its petty retcons can erase the incandescence of The Last Jedi's storytelling. I came away from that viewing with the conviction that The Rise of Skywalker is the cinematic equivalent of a changeling. It's illegitimate in body and spirit. Something about watching The Last Jedi again gave me peace... not because it made The Rise of Skywalker bearable, but because it felt like confirmation that there was a time when the sequel trilogy was made with sincerity and love and the goal of creating something beautiful. I love The Last Jedi for that beauty even though it was brief.

The Last Jedi's transparency of intent also gave me confidence to reject The Rise of Skywalker as inevitable and authoritative. I reject that Rey is a Palpatine. I reject the death of Ben Solo. I reject the squandering of themes and characters from the previous eight movies. There is no universe where anything in that movie was envisioned while Rian Johnson wrote The Last Jedi. The canon's integrity was irrevocably tarnished by The Rise of Skywalker and as such canon is meaningless to me now. I just don't accept The Rise of Skywalker as an authentic ending to the Skywalker story. It broke the illusion of storytelling authority required to buy into the concept of a canon.

I like to daydream that one I'll write a book-length fanfic of my Episode IX headcanon and have it illustrated by a fandom artist. It won't happen but it's soothing to imagine. Wishing you all good luck.
@Angharad
-I agree, I also view TLJ as a good faith sequel to TFA. Well put.
Yeah re TFA I have mixed feelings about it, but maybe that’s a conversation for another day lol.
I’m really glad you could enjoy TLJ and forget TROS existed!!!! I hope I can get to that point again!!!
-Yes, I think TROS was not only inconsistent with TLJ, it was inconsistent with the entire saga and what GL was getting at. It finished on a really empty note for me.
-Whooo I am not content creator, but I live in hope that Reylos will be inspired to create content which I am sure I would enjoy!

-Hi All, I mentioned that at this point – I have a choice to continue to hope for future SW stories I can get behind..
I’ve often wondered what could happen for me to engage again with SW content… what is it that would bring me back?  Anyone else been thinking about that? What would bring you back?

I’ve been thinking I need post TROS storytelling to change Ben Solo’s death – and reunite him with Rey…
Then, I heard about the High Republic (very briefly) and for the first time, I wondered if could I get behind SW if it is a different era of Jedi vs Sith?
I think I need change at LFL, and evidence that they’ve recognised their errors. I agree with you @californiagirl and your comment about needing some resignations!
I need to see LFL stop pandering to ‘true fans’, and reinforcing their self declared right as ‘true fans’ to be gate keepers and arbiters of what Star Wars is and can be – for anyone.
I think reputation repair is needed for ‘the Force’ and ‘the Jedi’. After TROS, the force to me is cruel to those it chooses to use as a tool of the cosmic force.
And, the Jedi? At the end of TROS I am not convinced any character would be well served by being a Jedi frankly.
Given this, why am I going to engage with storytelling from a millennia earlier about the force and the Jedi?

I will probably keep an ear out for what other Reylos have to say about the content.. I only hope I can continue to find Reylos who can let me know about it lol.
Ultimately though, without change from LFL and acknowledgement of how they screwed up? I would never invest like I did in the ST again.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 07 Jan 2021, 2:50 am

So many people articulating better than I can about how I feel myself about the ST.
TLJ is my favourite SW film. Partly because it tried to show a 'shades of grey' universe in SW which I think is needed in modern times, partly because Rian tried to give everyone their own story, partly because of it's epic scope, and partly because of its terrific acting, particularyl from Mark and Adam.
One of the things I hated the most about TROS is that it destroyed everything TLJ promised, from the fascinating notion of a Resistance that were less than perfect facing a FO who were less than evil, to Rey and Kylo's evolving relationship, to the possibility of a new breed of 'Grey' Jedi. I think the critic who described it as a 'steak dinner' compared to the hamburger that is TROS summed it up, and how I feel about it, perfectly.

But at least a hamburger is enjoyable. TROS is the first SW film I've seen where I found myself looking at my watch throughout it. The Trio scenes were especially hard to watch, not only dull but cringeworthy.
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Post by Kyla Ren on Thu 07 Jan 2021, 5:48 am

@DeeBee wrote:- I actually would spend money on that book lol.
I think I would, too. Laughing And who knows, maybe some day we’ll eventually get one.  I would also like to know more about what the actors really though of the whole thing.  I kind of think John and Oscar are glad that it’s over and done with.  I wonder what Adam thinks.  He did such a great job and put so much into his role as Kylo, and they really did his character a great disservice in TROS. Sad
@DeeBee wrote:I agree all the headcanons were a big problem. I think LFL should have taken this into consideration to address this while expanding the story.
I underestimated how big a barrier this would be to people accepting the story. I think LFL did too.
Is it fair of me to expect of LFL more than I expect of myself? I think it is – because there was evidence this was happening already after TFA – very early on and they didn’t do anything to address it, they instead poured fuel on the fires! Also, since TROS I've seen no sign that they are doing anything differently here...
I guess maybe they didn’t realize how divided the fandom was and/or how invested a lot of the fans were in their particular headcanons.  I mean, when it comes to Star Wars, it seems that emotions run high, and fans’ investment runs deep.  Or maybe if they did realize it, they thought that some fans might be surprised, but would accept whatever direction the story was going in.  But who knows.  Yet another reason I would love to read a book about this whole mess some day.  Laughing
@DeeBee wrote:If I had to guess, I think some version of Reylo was always a part of the overarching plot. But, it would not surprise me if it was unclear and undefined by the makers – leaving their options open the whole time.. (like it seems to have been unclear throughout who were Rey’s parents). I think at a minimum, from TFA Rey and Kylo had a ‘connection’ – maybe it was just the force dyad stuff and nothing more – but for me that’s a version of Reylo…
You might be right.  Some version of Reylo might have been part of the plan from the beginning.  It was just so mishandled in TROS that it really seems like they didn’t know what they were doing.  Or maybe after all the backlash, by the time they got to TROS they decided to kind of back off from it.  I just don’t know what to think anymore.
@DeeBee wrote:There is a rumour to decanonize ST?
That doesn’t seem likely.. but then I think of how they decanonized all the expanded universe so well.. anything is possible I guess!
There have been rumors for the past few months or so that the ST might be decanonized, but it might just be the wishful thinking of certain fans.  Although yes, they did decanonize the expanded universe, and since Disney owns Star Wars, I guess ultimately they can do whatever they want.  But as bad as TROS was and as much as I think it ruined the entire saga, I think I would still be very upset if they really did decanonize it.  What I would really like is for them to fix it somehow, preferably with another movie, but this time with a Reylo HEA.  But I know that there is probably less than a .000001% chance of that ever happening. Sad
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 07 Jan 2021, 7:19 am

I agree with you there. In fact the only film that needs de canonizing is TROS as TLJ was a highly critically acclaimed film, and I personally thought it a masterpiece, and TFA was great fun and had plenty of potential.
I'd be happy if they did a comic book or prose novel or both, decanonizing of TROS, especially if they got the great artist who did ROKR and Rian and /or Lawrence Kasdan to contribute to the writing. That would be great.
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Post by Kyla Ren on Thu 07 Jan 2021, 7:43 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:I agree with you there. In fact the only film that needs de canonizing is TROS as TLJ was a highly critically acclaimed film, and I personally thought it a masterpiece, and TFA was great fun and had plenty of potential.
I'd be happy if they did a comic book or prose novel or both, decanonizing of TROS, especially if they got the great artist who did ROKR and Rian and /or Lawrence Kasdan to contribute to the writing. That would be great.
@motherofpearl1

I would love it if they could somehow undo TROS, or at least the end of it.  Preferably the entire film.  That movie was just so awful on so many levels.  I definitely had issues with some things in TLJ, probably more than most Reylos, but I would really love to know what Rian would have done if he had made Episode IX.  Has he ever mentioned in any interviews any ideas he might have had for Episode IX?
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 07 Jan 2021, 9:03 am

None that I've seen so far, but I agree with you I'd love to know the direction he would have gone in.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 07 Jan 2021, 9:12 am

Kyla ren - None that I've seen so far, but I agree with you I'd love to know the direction he would have gone in.

I had an idea that the 'real' enemy so to speak in TROS would have been 'war' itself. A lot of us have speculated on how in TLJ both Poe and Holdo made speeches that were both different and yet similar
"We are the spark that will ignite hope" - Holdo
"We are the spark which will burn the FO to the ground" - Poe.

I had a firm belief that Rian's version of IX would have had Kylo leading a version of the FO where he would have tried to actually be a 'benevolent' dictator, trying to do some good while privately regretting his choices, while Poe would have been General of the Resistance and a lot more aggressive than Leia. I could see Finn 'going undercover' and attempting to start a rebellion among the stormtroopers. And I could see Rey being torn between her loyalty to a Resistance that were becoming more and more detached from bringing freedom and more intent on revenge, and an increasingly unhappy Kylo while Hux plotted a coup behind his back. This was what Rian seemed to be hinting at in the finals scenes of TROS, but I think they would have considered it too 'cerebral', hence the flashy pew pew and one note characterisations of TROS. Wasted opportunity, I think.
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Post by Angharad on Sat 09 Jan 2021, 1:18 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:Kyla ren - None that I've seen so far, but I agree with you I'd love to know the direction he would have gone in.

I had an idea that the 'real' enemy so to speak in TROS would have been 'war' itself. A lot of us have speculated on how in TLJ both Poe and Holdo made speeches that were both different and yet similar
"We are the spark that will ignite hope" - Holdo
"We are the spark which will burn the FO to the ground" - Poe.

I had a firm belief that Rian's version of IX would have had Kylo leading a version of the FO where he would have tried to actually be a 'benevolent' dictator, trying to do some good while privately regretting his choices, while Poe would have been General of the Resistance and a lot more aggressive than Leia. I could see Finn 'going undercover' and attempting to start a rebellion among the stormtroopers. And I could see Rey being torn between her loyalty to a Resistance that were becoming more and more detached from bringing freedom and more intent on revenge, and an increasingly unhappy Kylo while Hux plotted a coup behind his back. This was what Rian seemed to be hinting at in the finals scenes of TROS, but I think they would have considered it too 'cerebral', hence the flashy pew pew and one note characterisations of TROS. Wasted opportunity, I think.
@motherofpearl1

I still obsess over the plots and character arcs that could have been. People who say The Last Jedi left the story with nowhere to go lack imagination. Rey's direction is clear to me: her arc in IX should have focused on the expectations placed upon her by the Resistance as the 'last Jedi', how it contrasts with the things she needs as a person, and the inevitable fallout of this disparity. The following is how I would have written it:

In The Last Jedi Rey realises she has no grand justification for her place in the story and that her family were trash who abandoned her. Rey has accepts these things, but she begins the next film overcompensating for them because she hasn't emotionally come to terms with them. She would start the film uptight and self-righteous like she does in TROS, but for the purpose of deconstructing her. She tries to live up to her reputation as the needed perfect Jedi hero of the Resistance, but is increasingly lost and lonely: all she wants is family and belonging. Something that the rules of the Jedi prohibit (bringing it all back to what happened to Anakin). Rey wants to help win the war but doesn't know what will be left for her afterwards. The Resistance are her friends and care for her but they don't see or understand the pain in her heart. She won't let them in, and she becomes more chaotic and unstable as her fears begin to cloud her mind. Only the continuing Force bond (I refuse to use the word dyad) with Ben brings her any comfort. They realise they need each other, but they can't figure out how to cross the moral line that keeps them apart.

I would like for Rey to grapple with her decision to trick Ben over accepting his hand in The Last Jedi, too. Have him call her out on it, have her argue that she felt she couldn't trust him. Let them hash that s*** out until they come to a deeper understanding of each other. But they're both still on the 'dark side' and the 'light side', and Rey can't cope. She lashes out and runs from the Resistance when they need her the most. She begins to fall to the dark while Ben is returning to the light. I like to imagine a scene that intentionally mirrors Anakin and Padme in the 'Padme's Ruminations' scene from ROTS, but now with Rey and Ben as they are changing allegiances. The symbolism of an eclipse, something that shows up in TROS artwork but wasn't used, would be great for this scene too.

Ben is the only one who can stop Rey's fall, and sensing that she needs him. He's already been ousted by Hux's coup at this point and now, after having a heart-to-heart with Anakin's force ghost, throws off all vestiges of the dark side to go to Rey. The climax of the story would have Rey as the 'big bad', starting with an inversion of the TLJ throne room scene with Rey now imploring Ben to be with her in the dark. Maybe they fight and the energy of the Force bond rips a hole in space-time. To make the romantic and transcendent nature of their love clear, there would then be a spiritual sequence where Rey and Ben fall into the World Between Worlds, which for this purpose has the appearance of a shifting psychedelic labyrinth, and see flashes of the story's defining moments that led them to each other - all the way back to Anakin's time, and including both Rey and Ben's childhoods - to drive home that their union will be the thing that balances the Force for good. I have this powerful mental image of Rey and Ben in an otherworldly landscape set to music like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIgM81CaJDc

They then find each other, and come together with understanding and a kiss, after which they are returned to the regular world, to fight together with the Resistance against Hux. Or something. Of course Episode IX would have to have a central plot and character arcs for everyone else too but the above is how I would write Rey's arc and the Reylo romance. My god, can you believe how badly they flubbed it? The potential for a transcendant romantic powerful conclusion to Star Wars was right there!

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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 09 Jan 2021, 2:38 am

And there's the rub. So much wasted potential.
Essentially Rian left them with some truly amazing possibilities, but they threw it away because of three things - Terrio wanted his eight year old self's fanfiction on screen, DLF wanted to pander to the toxic fan base, and JJ indulged his friends, Ridley and Boyega, who wanted to be together on screen. Add to this their anxious need to satisfy wokesters and you get TROS.
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Post by Kylo Ren's 8-Pack on Mon 11 Jan 2021, 11:01 pm

I'm still disappointed in the ending to the series.

I just watched 'The Force Awakens' a few days ago here at home and was reminded of how promising it all started.
So many GREAT moments in that film...and when certain scenes come up I immediately think of this Forum and the hours upon hours of discussion we would have about truly deep interperatations.
The hypothetical thinking, the discussions of meaningful representations within the film's settings and cinematography, and even down to the old 'heart shapes in his eyes!' debate...gawd it was a great period!
TFA is still a entertaining film, but for me it is SO disheartening to watch now knowing where it's all going to lead - two disappointing films and a very disjointed and ( IMO ) uncalled for 'ending' for Ben.

Despite having said all of that, I DO still have a desire to re-watch TLJ and TROS sometime to reexamine and revisit certain scenes.
I only saw TLJ once....upon release....and was not motivated at all to view again.
TROS I saw twice ...upon release....and although disappointing, I enjoyed it more then TLJ.

Rey and Ben deserved better.

-
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